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통합규정 1.3 이용안내 인용"Pgr은 '명문화된 삭제규정'이 반드시 필요하지 않은 분을 환영합니다.법 없이도 사는 사람, 남에게 상처를 주지 않으면서 같이 이야기 나눌 수 있는 분이면 좋겠습니다."
07/04/10 02:59
삭제 아이콘
1. One Zealot and a Dragoon
_____'One Zealot and a Dragoon' takes the form of typical One Gateway play. Kang Min had shown us this technique many times in the past; first Zealot barricading a ramp, and first Dragoon chasing away the scout Overlord. But, this type of playing style was hardly found after double Nexus became common. Protoss players started to garner as many Zealots as they can, and strived to perfect the timing of pushing Zerg with speed/attack+1 upgraded Zealot, for this build was the most widespread build. (A build that solely focuses on Templars to counter everything Zerg has to offer) _____The beauty of this build is, no doubt, harassing the opponent aiming for that calculated timing with speed/attack+1 upgraded Zealots, and the swift transitioning to Teamplars. The downside is, however controversial, that there is nothing to scare away the Overlord(it hovers over Protoss base for a significant period of time) due to massing Zealots. Also, since Forge is built as a barricade near the entrance, if Zerg catches the timing Protoss starts the attack upgrade, he can easily speculate the push timing. _____Kim Taekyong's first savvy would be(distancing himself from the typical Zealot pushing build, and) -utilizing one zealot and a dragoon after double Nexus. Just like a one Gateway play would turn out to be, after warping a cannon in the frontyard, (Protoss would) warp a Zealot from the Gateway, and as soon as the Cybernetics Core is warped, a Dragoon would soon follow. While carefully processing all data the scout probe sends back, he'd utilize Zealot(s) either to make a feign harrassment with one Zealot, forcing Zerg more sunkens and Zerglings, if the Zerg economy seems to grow too rapidly; or to stop Zerglings from penetrating, and to defend against such similar raids (It'd be just as good to pump out more Zealots, if the situation calls for them). Upon completion of warping Cybernetics Core, the Dragoon will take down or chase away Overlord, and (the Protoss would) freely play the game out outside of Zerg's vision, already having shut down Zerg's scouting, probably Zerg's most favorable gain in early game. 2. Perfecting Corsair/Dark Templar and the defensive protocol. _____Since Kim Taekyong focuses on defending with Cannons and few Zealots, many people question whether his build would be countered by Zerg's assault before it transitions to Cosair and Dark Templar. But to think this from a different perspective, as long as a Stargate, an Adun (Templar Archive to follow), and an Additional Gateway are warped, it wouldn't matter if all remnant minerals are to be warped as Cannons (Protoss having went double Nexus). Since all past Protoss players put their life on line for perfecting a build, and are thus stingy in warping cannons in thought they would rather defend with units, in this build, however, the minerals can be utilized in anyway as long as the Corsair and Dark Templar are warped at the right timing (Actually Kim Taekyong builds 3~4 cannons at the very scent of something fishy). _____Now then, what part do Corsair and Dark Templar take? If Terran were to build double Command Center against Zerg, he would steadily produce Marines from one Barracks while building a Command Center. But, steady or not, Marines from one Barracks does not amount to much. And if Zerg were to catch that and mass Zerglings, Zerg can raid Terran's frontyard when Terran is about to land the Center delaying the expansion, or just end the game altogether. In Starcraft original, one Barracks play is nothing short of an act of suicide, but since we're watching and playing Broodwar, Terran can prepare something else for that(Zergling raid). It is Academy. Having built Refinery and Academy, Terran would not only effectively defend during such risky timing with Medics and Firebats, but also push forward the Zerg to hinder him from producing Drones to get rich, forcing Sunkens, and from time to time pierce through, greatly debilitating the Zerg. The Corsair Dark Templar takes on the exact task as the Academy; the Corsair Dark Templar's task to nullify such raids made(by Zerg) while Cannons have held them back, and to eradicate any and all of Zerg's expansions. Also, since two Dark Templars are warped at 2~3 Corsair timing, the Templars will penetrate in any chance they get when Overlords near the entrance are killed. Since this is not a do-or-die strategy, but rather a bridging to ensure the timing when mass production system would set in place, Protoss can be fully satisfied with just having all the tech buildings warped, even if Corsair Dark Templar did not inflict much damage. -Corsair's Role Producing Corsair can take many roles; scouting Zerg's current situation, hunting Overlords to trouble Zerg in its count, and etc. But, one more thing I want to say is that Corsairs force the breeding of Hydralisks. Protoss always take much damage due to the cost-effectiveness of Zerg. The most notorious would be Zerglings. Those Zerglings, costing only 50cents per pair, can't be more despised. In addition, when upgraded accordingly, they pose great threat dubbed as imba units and nothing less. Zerg players who dominates against Protoss would usually coordinate the match to a late game, ready his gameplay fit for mass production of Zerglings, and simply crush Protoss with Zerglings and Ultralisks. So for a Protoss, it is much more convenient if Zerg counters with any other units besides Zerglings. But, since the chance of that happening is slim, shouldn't Protoss force it somehow? Forcing Zerg to breed Hydralisks is simple. Protoss would have to simply warp Corsairs. As long as Zerg isn't preparing to defend Corsairs with Spores all around, Zergs would defend it with Hydralisks. As long as the Zerglings aren't capable of jumping into air to attack Corsairs, Zergs normally breed Hydralisks. (They 'can' breed Mutalisks.) When Zergs breed Hydralisks, Protoss can warp Reaver, and High Templar; Dragoons are just as good. In any case, Protoss is much better off than fighting against swarms of Zerglings and it raises the probability of gaining more and more of an edge. ===== This additional note does not in any way reflect Teamliquid.net in whole, but just my personal opinion. === Aside from my personal indifference towards PGR21.com, I believe the idea behind the creation of this translation board was nothing shy of brilliance for various reasons. I would not bother to list all of them, but it can't be reputed the translation board would enrich PGR21.com in every aspect possible. However, it was personally disappointing that upon the birth of this translation board the rights to translate top-notch articles were all constrained to this one board in PGR21.com, which in result, hindered the spreading and sharing of Korean eSports progaming scene with foreign community. If the goal of this translation board was to spread the 'good news' to the foreign community(which I firmly believe it was), all this board has achieved so far is stopping the old translators to translate the article to other foreign sites(like myself). So far, I have not seen a single translations done in this board posted in any other popular foreign Starcraft related sites. I will not say this board is just fancying English skills in their own league, because I still do believe(apart from my personal indifference with PGR21.com) that the creation of this translation board was one of the best things that happened in PGR21.com. I have waited more or less 3 months for the translation of the article written by kimera님. I was given a warning for having translated it on my own and posting in TL.net. I immediately deleted the post, and awaited for PGR21.com to translate it. At that time, I was honestly offended for having to delete such work that took me nearly half a day, but complied in good spirit. I was also confused why there can't be two or more different translators, translating the same article, in two or more different Starcraft communities, but then again I just let it be. But, after three months the brilliant article written by kimera님 is nowhere to be found, either in TLnet or PGR21.com. It is very ironic how I have this unbelievable amount of sheer respect for all those great writers and contributors in Starcraft community like 사일렌트님, 노동 8호님, 키메라님, and much more, but yet be so apathetic towards PGR21.com. So, it is neither my inclination or my position to offer advice or maybe even this comment for that matter. But, I sincerely wish, out of the general well being of the communities of Starcraft progaming scene, this board prospers. rinizim.
07/04/10 09:35
rinizim/
I think the whole situation needs an explanation, although it might seem like an excuse after all. First, the article of kimera님 was going to be translated by someone in PGR -or at least that's what I had been notified by that person, which have never occurred since. (He gave it up and translated another one instead.) If you have felt offended, I apologize for that. It was never my intention to offend you, nor was I to depeciate your time and effort put into the translation. In fact I was going to ask you if we could post yours here, then found out you'd deleted it. We have also waited for TL staffs to qualify a person in chagre of communication with PGR in regard to translation, which is not going very smooth yet, as you might have noticed. If that went well, every article we'd translated would've been posted in TL and elsewhere. That was why I contacted you to notify that we've created a translation board; we're not opposed to personal translations by readers outside PGR, but it wouldn't look very good to have two translations of the same article in one place. Maybe I should have done it myself, but my thoughts have not reached that far. Thank you for your concern (not to mention the translation) and this was just the kind of feedback we needed from outside PGR.
07/04/11 04:17
삭제 아이콘
I thank you for your thoughtful explanation.
Please, let me be unaffected. And, I hope you don't misunderstand my terse reply as rudeness. What I aspire as an amateur translator in Starcraft progaming scene are as follows: 1. Freely translating tasteful articles in Korean to English or vice versa, as long as the original writer doesn't strictly forbid the reproduction(translation) of the article. 2. Spreading and sharing insightful(sometimes humorous as in 노동 8호님's case) materials to the foreign community. PGR21.com's views are as follows from what I understand: 1. Quoting your PM 3 months ago, "Also, PGR21 is entitled to all rights regarding kimera's articles - he recently made it clear to me.", PGR21.com reserves all rights to kimera님's article and thus forbids foreign translators to translate it freely. 2. PGR21.com is seeking resourceful translators in their translation board. 3. It is a waste of resource(or 'not good' to quote you directly) to have two different translations in one place. 4. PGR21.com had some trouble ironing out minor issues in applying the articles in translation board with other foreign sites(not specifically limited to TL.net). Thus, my questions are as follows, from my inference based on the reply and the pm I have received: 1. So far I have not encountered one single person who would not want their work translated while being fully credited to themselves, original creator. When kimera님 granted PGR21.com all the copyrights, was he aware of the fact that the copyright in question was originally about his article being translated in English, and not just copy-pasted to other Korean sites? (Whatever the answer to this question might be, I still do acknowledge it was right to delete the translation of kimera님's article since I did not get his permission beforehand; the more reason I specifically stated in the translated post that I will be deleting it if any complaints were filed. So, I want to elucidate any misunderstanding, for you did not need to apologize to me for warning me about it, though I was 'honestly offended'. And, by 'honestly offended' I meant, um... 한글로는 섭섭했습니다 정도입니다. So, I apologize if I have not made myself clear on the above reply. 2. Quoting your reply, "but it wouldn't look very good to have two translations of the same article in one place", do you mean it's not good to have two translations of the same article in PGR21.com only, or in any other websites as well, like TL.net? I am somewhat confused if your reply would be latter of the two, because in TL.net there are from time to time two different interview translations done at the same time by two translators. Although I have to agree it is not the most proficient way to handle things, since this whole translation fanfare is out of sheer amateurish delightfulness(in oneself, and in knowledge that I/translators am/are doing something worthwhile), having two translations or more in other websites other than PGR21.com does not pose a great deal. 3. Quoting my replying PM to 퍼플레인님, "티엘.넷의 항즐이님 인터뷰 읽어보았습니다. 번역 게시판의 글들도 읽으며 매우 좋다고 생각했습니다. 이제부터 PGR21의 글들은 옮기지 않겠습니다. 이번 키메라님의 글과, 번역 게시판 생성 시기가 겹치면서 이런 일이 벌어지게 되어 유감입니다. 삭제 조치를 요구하지 않으셔서 그냥 남겨둘까 하다가, 지우는 게 낫겠다 싶어 키메라님의 번역 글은 지웁니다." I did not receive a reply after this. Thus, I was only able to reach a conclusion that this is the outcome you expected(reluctantly or not). But, since in your reply above you have stated quote "we're not opposed to personal translations by readers outside PGR"; where does PGR21.com stand on the issue of old translators like myself translating Korean articles into English and spreading it to foreign websites? Do PGR21.com want old translators to become members of the PGR21.com and work on its translation board? Do PGR21.com allow free "copyleft"?(again quoting your pm, though for this argument's sake strictly limited to the copyleft of translation) Do PGR21.com ultimately want all the translations of the articles posted in PGR21.com to be originally translated in its translation board first, and then be spread to other websites? I know these are similar questions altogether, but they are very important for me in deciding what I'd have to do to continue my 'hobby', I apologize for their lack of tactfulness. 4. Was there any other foreign websites besides TL.net, where the discussion about translation and it's copyleft took place? If so, what were they? and if not, did(or do) PGR21.com have plans to effectively convey this translation board to foreign communities, since it is currently limiting the foreigners themselves to act on their own and acquire articles for translation? (Please, correct me if I am wrong about this particular assumption) 5. And, while PGR21.com is declaring all rights of the articles in PGR21.com(if at all), is PGR21.com taking appropriate actions against those articles translated from other foreign websites to PGR21.com? For example, in the case of the interview of nal_draco in sc.gosugamers.net, was there appropriate inquiry offered to sc.gosugamers.net about the permission before translating the article? What does PGR21.com think about these posts below?: https://pgr21.com./zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=28731 https://pgr21.com./zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on=teamliquid&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=27762 https://pgr21.com./zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&=teamliquid&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=27098 https://pgr21.com./zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=27392 https://pgr21.com./zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=27018 https://pgr21.com./zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=26259 https://pgr21.com./zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&page=1&sn1=&divpage=5&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=29407 Would I not be ridiculous if I were to ask whether these above translated posts were posted with or without permission? In my opinion, the above posts are very personal and were meant to be posted in TL.net and shared with the TL.net members only. And, it literally pains me to see some of them being mocked. But, I am not being fair I know. Theses things happen everyday. For instance, I see tons of Koreans relaying Chinese or Japaneses people's reactions on soccer, ice skating and K1, UFC etc. So, why should the process of translating and the protocols for translators be so inaccessible and stifling for articles posted in PGR21.com? (Again, correct me if I am wrong) I maybe tedious in demanding answers to all these questions. But, I wish PGR21.com can understand its extremity regarding myself. If it were to be so simple, I might as well just simply be blind and deaf in what PGR21.com has to say about my translations. However, as much aloof as I am towards PGR21.com, I respect its existence. And, I do not want to trespass that. This is something beyond my personal character, because it has to do with people I adore, the original dedicated 'artists'. I thank you in advance. rinizim
07/04/11 16:05
1. What kimera님 has informed us was that PGR was entitled to all his writings in any forms, therefore to the reproductions as well as the original articles. I figured that your 'honestly offended' phrase was not by any means truly offensive, however, at the same time I do understand what it feels like when the time and effort you put into the work all becomes vain and void. So in the same manner, you need not apologize to me at all:D
2. My answer for this question will be "PGR and any other foreign websites which have agreements with PGR to communicate in terms of sharing translations, such as TL." Thus not all foreign websites fall under such definition, and so far TL is the only place, if I should clarify. 3. We do not forbid personal translations by non-members of PGR. Nevertheless, let me be personal with this issue; I honestly do hope that well-qualified translators like you will join PGR and work on the translation board. We certainly have a heck of beautiful, dedicated and formidable articles and only a few translators to make use of. The purpose of creating this board was to share brilliant articles in PGR with other foreign websites and communities, therefore our ultimate goal is to have articles be translated here first then be spread to other places. 4. The answer is stated in question #2. We also had discussions with GG up to some level, but have not reached any sort of agreements yet. At this point, I have to admit that translation board as of now can be a limitation of acquisition of articles for foreign readers. We only have so many translations, and that sets a bound to a broader range of choices for them. That problem will be solved as we have more translators to work on and figure out how to run the system effectively. 5. PGR does not declare rights to 'all' articles here. The case of kimera님 was a very unique and an exceptional one to us as well. We also ask for the original author's permission beforehand. We suggest that the English-Korean translations by members of PGR have the permission of the writer. However, many of these reproductions are not by the members themselves. They go to other Korean communities then copy-paste the translation that already exists there. For the former, I agree that we need to have a stricter scrutiny. But for the latter, there is hardly any way for us to deal with it. It is never our intention to make it inaccessible for translators outside PGR, although I must make it clear that I wish that they would join PGR. (Again, this is not the official standing of PGR.) What you want to is dedendent upon your decision. I personally think it will be important to find a way to communicate with non-member translators, for they are the ones that have really contributed to dissemination of Korean e-sports. Their 'sheer amateurism' was in fact more 'professional' than the most, and I highly value their passion and dedication.
07/04/12 11:32
Hi. I’m also a member of TL.net, and a regular translator there. I go by the ID infinity21. Let me start off by saying that PGR’s Recommended section is always a pleasure to read and it motivates me to translate the great threads. ^^
Still, it's a very tedious process to wait for the original writer’s permission, isn’t it? I request PGR’s permission to translate high-quality articles without notifying the original poster, which I feel takes too long and often goes unanswered (for some reason). Of course, full credits will be given to the original writer and PGR. I plan to post the translations on TL.net and SC2.org, as I do with Fighter Forum articles. I hope that this is not too much to ask.
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